Interview #1 - My Conversation with Toni Grolman 1 Year into the Israel // Gaza War
As I'm sure everyone is aware, it was recently the 1 year anniversary of the October 7th attacks in Israel and the bloody conflict that has followed. For me, it has been a year of watching my attitude shift. I learned about the conflict during high school and have always been pro a two-state solution, however, I viewed Israel as under attack and had more sympathy for their cause.
In the years since I have moved further to the left and in the past year in particular, I have felt my views change on the conflict in the Middle East. I do understand that Israel, like any nation, has a right to defend itself; I do now feel that as the nation with the greater capabilities and clear advantage, the effort is on them to set the tone and make the greater efforts to help find a long-term solution that will increase the quality of life for Palestinians. Many people may disagree with me, but I truly believe that only after the material conditions these people are living in change, can the agency and desire for radical action turn into a willingness to negotiate.
My views have caused me to grow frustrated with the Israeli government. A lot of people my age have seemingly grown frustrated with the Israeli Government. Each day my social media is flooded with footage direct from Gaza and I feel like that kind of exposure for a year would shift anyone's views. My shifting views have coincided with constantly seeing nothing but Pro Palestinian posters & messaging around campus. This mistakenly led me to think that most people on campus felt the same way.
On the first anniversary of this conflict, I was going to campus to attend classes like any normal Monday, when I saw a Stall openly supporting the Israeli side, they were displaying posters and Israeli flags. The Australasian Union of Jewish Students (AUJS) put on the stall. This immediately stood out to me as I was very used to seeing nothing but Pro-Palestinian posters around campus.
I was curious, why did they feel the need to come onto campus? Have these people seen a shift in their views over the past year? What was it like coming onto campus and representing a side that hasn’t seen representation or backing all year? What do they have to say about some of the pretty damning things coming out against Israel?
Fortunately, one of the people I was talking with was keen to continue our conversation and I’m really proud to say that I have arranged my first Interview. I will be talking to Toni Grolman, a law student studying at Curtin and I’m excited to get some more insights into her perspective on things.
The following Monday, October 14th, Toni and I met for coffee and had a very interesting conversation about the conflict, its effects one year in, the media's response to the conflict and the response on social media.
Was this your first time with the stall on campus? How did it go?
I first wanted to know how the stall went the previous Monday, what that was like, and why they thought it was important to do so. Toni revealed that the previous Monday was her first ever time setting up a stall on campus and engaging in that type of way. She said the day was a little disappointing as she found that many students were not interested In constructive conversations and instead faced conflict & opposition to her support of Israel.
Toni revealed that she and her friends from AUJS completely disagree with many of the terms that have become common on campus and online when describing this conflict. Terms like “genocide”, “apartheid state”, and “ethnic cleansing”. They feel that the Israeli Government is doing its best to keep its people safe and avoid harming civilians. Toni and her friends place the blame on Hamas & their proximity to civilian infrastructure for Palestinian deaths
She and her friends on occasion have been in scenarios where they are getting into shouting matches with the pro-Palestinian students after being unable to get words in and growing tired of hearing what she called lies.
How has the past year been? Has the conflict changed any of your media consumption?
Toni has described the past year as frustrating and mentioned she now checks the news daily, something she had never done before. This new media consumption pattern has been an exercise in patience more than anything from what Toni tells me. She talked about how she constantly wants to shout at the screen each time she reads an article or headline she believes is bending the truth or outright lying.
Would you say that the reason you came to campus on Monday was to provide some clarification, and clear the air?
Toni shared that she felt that a lot of misinformation around Israel & the conflict had made its way onto campus via the media and social media. Frustrated with seeing activists on campus shouting things she did not agree with, she felt that somebody had to step up and be that voice on the other side who could provide insights or important pieces of context. Toni told me that many others in her community share her frustration but are too afraid to speak.
What are your thoughts on groups across campus like Socialist Alternative and The Curtin Palestinian Society?
Toni sarcastically described Socialist Alternative as her favourite people on campus. She feels that many of the people in the movement have only learned about this conflict in the past year and are spending too much time only paying attention to catchy news headlines and misleading Instagram infographics. She described the group as being difficult to engage with at both the stall she ran and the general student meeting two days later. Toni finds this group to only be muddying the waters and finds their support in a sense to be strange considering the contrast in values between that group and more traditional elements of Palestinian society.
Toni had much nicer things to say about the Curtin Palestinian Society. This group has a stronger connection to the conflict, says Toni, and a much stronger knowledge and understanding than the groups mentioned above.
To me it was really interesting to hear her speak more positively about the Palestinian Society, this went against my assumptions about what she would say, and proved her genuine desire for solid information on the topic and constructive conversation.
What would you say about Jewish voices online speaking out against Israel and its actions?
A big factor in shifting my view on the conflict was seeing many Jewish people speaking out against the conflict. I was very curious to see what Toni had to say…
Toni told me that she feels that Jewish voices online, who are speaking against Israel represent a minority, are poorly informed, and muddying the waters. She feels that many of these people online -making specific reference to members of JVP- do not have a great knowledge of the situation or Jewish culture and are simply using their Jewish ties to back up what they are saying which she feels helps to excuse anti-Semitism.
Personally, I understand why Toni may feel this way. She told me she has spent her gap year living in Israel and is a regular part of her local Jewish community, volunteering with youth organisations and doing her best to be a positive informed member of her religion and people. It has to be frustrating to watch people who are considerably less knowledgeable and likely less invested, say things you feel to be unhelpful and misrepresent the truth.
On the other hand, I, unlike Toni, do not believe that the Israeli government is doing enough to set peaceful and constructive tones for negotiation and eventually peace. Anti-Semitism has been on the rise and I believe that if anyone can constructively criticise the Israeli government without stoking the flames of bigotry, it is Jewish voices online.
Many see ceasefires as an essential ending to this conflict but not everyone
From talking to Toni it was clear that she was not a fan of the violence, but also believes that only after Hamas and Hezbollah are out of power can the violence end long-term. Toni believes that ending these two groups is not only going to end the violence but will help improve the lives of Palestinian and Lebanese people under their respective rule.
Toni is right that groups that take a violent revolutionary approach can be problematic in the sense that they do not address basic needs and instead focus on conflict. However, it seems like for many people including myself the cost of this war, and eliminating this extremism is too high.
The effect of material conditions on loyalties
I shared with Toni my view that people are a result of their material conditions and that we are all products of our environments. Toni agreed and told me about the ways Hamas fosters radicalism amongst children telling me stories of Anti-Semitic and pro-radical books being found at schools in Gaza. This was awful to hear that children were being brought into this conflict. Toni also felt that the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 was a perfect opportunity for Palestinian development but influence from extremist groups from around the Middle East has fostered this extremism that is more focused on directing aid resources to conflict than improving said material conditions.
Toni had some valid points but I still feel that this did not completely explain why extremist resistance had been adopted. Yes, foreign influences played a role however people do not choose to adopt such ideologies out of nowhere they need a reason to adopt such extreme measures. I also feel that whilst there may have been development opportunities the fact that these people required aid still indicates uneasy conditions and possible motivation for people to be driven to violence. This all seems far too circular to me, the violence and displacement it may take to eliminate Hamas could very well be the seed for the next extremist organisation.
This was my first interview & I have learned that being attentive, checking you are asking the questions you would like to ask and moving the conversation forward are difficult things to all do at once. I wish I had gone deeper on this but I still got a great insight into Toni’s mindset.
Sins of the media
It seems to me that both sides of this debate are not impressed with the handling of the coverage by the media. Toni feels that many media sources in the West have too much of a bias against Israel. Toni told me about several ways of framing stories that she sees as unhelpful and inaccurate i.e. reporting Israelis who have died as “killed” whilst Palestinians under the same scenario, are often reported as “Murdered”.
Toni feels that describing Hamas members as freedom fighters and rebels is inaccurate and only works to rehabilitate their image. Toni also mentioned a lack of agency on behalf of these major media outlets to correct mistakes and announce misreporting. She feels that these practices, as well as a bias to feature interviews with displaced and upset Palestinians, over Jewish people who have also been affected by the conflict, as unhelpful and attempts to generate more engagement by writing with emotionally charged language.
To me, it is clear that for-profit media organisations are playing both sides for fools. As long as there are profit incentives behind retention and attention, these outlets will continue to write emotionally captivating and misleading headlines and articles.
One of my favourite quotes from the entire conversation was when Toni stated “I understand why people don’t believe me because all they see is lies. No one fact-checks anything”.
I feel like this quote reveals so much of the initial frustration that inspired her to come out on campus as well as the nature of the media environment. Toni is a well-read and passionate woman and I am by no means trying to discredit her, but I’d wager most people from the opposite side of the aisle might say something similar. Social media and news media are fantastic at entrenching someone on their side. I am guilty of this myself sticking firmly to the online left.
Conclusion
At the end of the day whilst I may not agree with everything Toni has to say I do not doubt her, her friends or any of the students who are politically active on both sides of the matter's commitment to what they all believe is right.
Whether it is Socialist Alternative or AUJS, we are talking about a group of Australian students who are well-educated and care about conflicts abroad and human life. I think at least in regard to debating this conflict we need to begin here.
My generation, Gen Z, has demonstrated an incredible capacity for political action, which genuinely gives me hope. I have now realised that the most unproductive part of the equation is media organisations fighting for profits and eyeballs, writing intentionally divisive and emotive stories designed to keep people watching.
Thank you so much for taking the time to read this piece. This was my first ever interview and my first ever soiree into journalism. I have learned a lot preparing, editing, and writing this interview. I'm excited to do more and would appreciate any advice, suggestions or ideas. Please feel free to let me know your thoughts on the topic. Have your views shifted on this topic? How has the media influenced your perceptions of what is going on?
Toni told me she was keen to have more conversations like this and urged anyone interested to reach out to her Instagram @toni.grolman
Below are some Arab and Middle Eastern activists on Instagram who Toni asked me to link to
@elicalebon
@justluai
@realbassemeid
@sarahhidan
@rawanosman2024
@arabs_ask
@jon_elk
@peacecomms
She also highly recommends reading Son of Hamas by Mosab Hassan Yousef.
*All the above links are included to encourage healthy conversation, the accounts linked contain the views of their respective owners and not myself.
